A little heads up about GMs

vzmule · Post by **vzmule** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 12:19 pm

Programmer wrote:yes, /hideme is the command guides use, but I am not so certain it is the way GMs go stealthy all of the time. True, a guide or senior cannot see a GM in /who all if they have stealth mode on, however they can sometimes see they are on with /find. Depending on what mode the GM is in, /find will either tell you the zone they are in, or respond as if they are not online. This can happen even though they are chatting away in /pr.

Yep, Guide's /goto also works while they are hidden. I found that out the hard way back when I used to be a Guide. heh.

ieatacid · Post by **ieatacid** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:16 pm

They don't even show up on ShowEQ if they're in stealth mode

Indent · Post by **Indent** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:36 pm

Do they have a ShowEQ interface available to them? I mean, can they see the warps that people are (were, sorry) doing like I do? Is it as fancy, or less fancy that what I'm running? I use ShowEQ as if the rest of the world, including GMs, are seeing what I see. Am I being too paranoid?

Programmer · Post by **Programmer** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:00 pm

Do they have a ShowEQ interface available to them? I mean, can they see the warps that people are (were, sorry) doing like I do? Is it as fancy, or less fancy that what I'm running? I use ShowEQ as if the rest of the world, including GMs, are seeing what I see. Am I being too paranoid?

I don't think anyone posting on these boards can definitively answer this. (Well, I'm certain there are people that can, but do not think they will

There is no reason to think Sony would ignore use of tools such as SEQ and MQ. While in many ways it can be debated that they are foolish, they are not so foolish as to turn their back on visual tools dropped into their lap.

I do not think you are being excessively paranoid. Remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

MrSmallie · Post by **MrSmallie** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:14 pm

I doubt that MQ or even ShowEQ is being used by anyone in an official capacity. The licensing agreements between Sony/Verant/SOE, surely limit that across the board.

Programmer · Post by **Programmer** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:07 pm

I doubt that MQ or even ShowEQ is being used by anyone in an official capacity. The licensing agreements between Sony/Verant/SOE, surely limit that across the board.

I would be surprised if they used SEQ or MQ directly, but I would not be surprised if they created their own tools to provide the same functionality in a more direct manner. I know for a certainty that Sony uses a different client internally, and that it is kept secure.

License agreements between who? I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning as to why they would be prohibited from using any legal tool at their disposal. After all, I don't ask myself for permission to do things that are otherwise legal, I just do them.

Perhaps you mean a license agreement between Sony, Verant, and SOE? Verant doesn't exist so they are a non entity. SOE is simply a division of Sony. I can see no reason why Sony would care how SOE views the data on their own servers, beyond limits of legality (which, in the context of this discussion, could only include copyright issues behind the software used to view that data, and since MQ and SEQ are GPL (aren't they?), this is a non issue).

Bad Karma · Post by **Bad Karma** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:27 pm

There was a leak of the GM Client some years back. I've never used it, even on a local server/emulator, so have no idea what its actual functionality was. It's a given now, however, that it no longer works and has probally been updated more times than the player client. lol Not even sure if I still have it or not, but might be fun to play around with for those of you running private servers (if you can get it working again). It should work if you do a fresh install to anything pre-Luclin and don't patch.

TheColonel · Post by **TheColonel** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:43 pm

Programmer wrote: I never stopped to look at your post count, and even after your reference to it, I still haven't. For all I know as I type this, its greater than mine. Post count in no way indicates anything more about a person than how much they've posted on this particular board.

Post count alone, maybe not... but joined date can indicate a certain level of ignorance... (not pointing at anyone in this thread, making a statement)

wilso132 · Post by **wilso132** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:48 pm

The GM wasn't targetable... period. Not even with normal click, so I wouldn't guess /target would work. He didn't have a green name or and didn't show up on /w or superwho.. but I did think of a few possibilities for detecting GMs.

#1- GMs usually have the word "the" in their name. I can use that to my advantage.

#2- GMs like to be level 65 on 99% of the servers.

#3- Even if they aren't detectable the whole time, someone said that they are when they first zone in.

I can use #1, #2, and #3 to make an intelligent GM detection tool... while not foolproof, (and while it may fire off a false alarm) it's good enough for me.

Programmer · Post by **Programmer** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:04 pm

#1- GMs usually have the word "the" in their name. I can use that to my advantage.

An example, Brenlo the Bixiebopper. In almost all of these cases, the name in the struct will be Brenlo, and the surname will be the Bixiebopper. However, GMs can break the rules in this regard. A more important problem though... if they don't appear in superwho, what would you look at in order to search for "the"?

#2- GMs like to be level 65 on 99% of the servers.

True enough. They can change their level without notice, but they are almost always level 65.

#3- Even if they aren't detectable the whole time, someone said that they are when they first zone in.

I have reservations about this. I believe this only affects those with the avatar level Guide, who has the worst of the stealth available. The best I can see available, if indeed a GM appears in superwho briefly when they zone in (something I am actually certain is false, now that I think about some of what I know), is to continuously monitor the list looking for them to appear. Because they come off the list quickly, you would either have to consume an overwhelming amount of CPU resources polling for this, or you would have to decode the incoming packet stream.

Good luck with it and whatever you learn in your pursuit. If you make progress I am sure many would be interested. Then again, if you do make progress, I would suggest only telling a select few that you trust not to leak it, because its likely Sony would examine how and change things on their end.

Bad Karma · Post by **Bad Karma** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:10 pm

The reason why GMs/Guides are detectable for a brief moment as they zone in is because each time (at least Guides, Senior Guides and above can zone while /invis /hideme) they zone in somewhere, they have to re-issue the /invis and /hideme commands. This is usually hotkeyed. There is that brief amount of time from the time the server shows the character in the zone, and the time the client loads and the player can control the toon again. For SG's and above, the /invis and /hideme will remain while zoning, but the info (GM soandso has entered the zone) is still loaded to the server. The server will then filter out the GM info from being sent to the client. This doesn't happen until after the GM has entered the zone, however.

As far as detecting this, the easiest and most reliable method would probally be to determine the GM flag in memory, and set an alert or event for this flag. It would have to scan frequently enough to pick it up before the server stopped sending the info to the client.

I haven't played with this any, so it is basically theory, but it's based on personal experience. I could set this up on a local server and test it out....just gotta get EQEmu working again. Haven't played with that in forever.

Elric · Post by **Elric** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:07 pm

Whoa whoa whoa.. Wait a minute now folks.

When a GM enters any zone, and they wish to remain invis, they are NOT detectable by any means. They do NOT show up in the who list for ANY period of time whatsoever. It is completely filtered server-side, and is never sent to the client.

Guides, however, have this restriction. But anyone with a Senior Guide + on them are not gimped by it.

Sorry to tell you, but if a GM doesn't want you to know he is a GM, you will not know he is a GM. Sad, but true.

Goofmester1 · Post by **Goofmester1** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:13 pm

Elric wrote:Whoa whoa whoa.. Wait a minute now folks.

When a GM enters any zone, and they wish to remain invis, they are NOT detectable by any means. They do NOT show up in the who list for ANY period of time whatsoever. It is completely filtered server-side, and is never sent to the client.

Guides, however, have this restriction. But anyone with a Senior Guide + on them are not gimped by it.

Sorry to tell you, but if a GM doesn't want you to know he is a GM, you will not know he is a GM. Sad, but true.

Really surprising when you find you have been grouped with a GM for over an hour .. Have had this happen twice. GM was watching someone and they had been very hard to catch so he grouped with them and that way the person was not on guard to being watched. I just love pick up group experiances.

Elric · Post by **Elric** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:29 pm

Bet he played the uber warrior tank, too.

For some reason, GMs like Warriors. Go figure.

BillyBumbler_01 · Post by **BillyBumbler_01** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:29 pm

About the invis / uninvis zone thing...

It's the same for players. When a player zones while invis, they are visible for a split second. Probably the time between whent he toon appears in the zone and when the player gets control of it.

I triple box a lot, and this has happened every time I've looked for it.

I got scared once in gfay while using a hunting macro to level some newbie something or other and a GM (guide maybe?) popped up right in front of me then disappeared. Didn't appear on who or anything. Definately not the same as a GM not appearing in the world at all but still being there...

Next time you're dual boxing, zone somewhere with one char, invis another char and zone them. Watch to see if they appear without the parens around their name for a second..

A little heads up about GMs

Speaking of ShowEQ