Has this happened to you?

Lord Yei · Post by **Lord Yei** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:53 am

One of the reasons that Microsoft can't prosecute all of the people who have "less than legal" copies of their products is that it is Illegal for them to retrieve ANY information from your computer. It is the same with EQ. The CS can review anything that is recorded "Server Side" but they Can Not get anything from your computer...as I understand (and I could be totally off) they can see the last 10 lines from your chat window.

Example of valid Ban: GM -- Something came through the server allowing you to target a mob outside your visible range.

Example of invalid Ban: GM -- You have a mob targeted that is outside your visible range.

If they have proof, they should cut their logs and paste it to your removal e-mail...otherwise they should be required to refund.

Just because they say you broke the EULA is not PROOF you broke the EULA. To remove you without proof is still legal (yes..they can remove anyone for any reason) but they are terminating the contract, not you at this point. It is a shame we are not talking about enough money to entice a lawyer to get involved (maybe a class action suit....bahahahahaha)

my 2 cp's

hardarac · Post by **hardarac** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:20 am

Ah ha ... i knew if I pestered long enough someone would see my point

Thanks Lord Yei

NecroPrancer · Post by **NecroPrancer** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:10 am

[quote]9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to change Game play. You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. You may not sell or auction any EverQuest characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.[/quote]

That is straight out of the EULA from the earlier post on this forum. As far as I know there is no real altering of the actual software that is Everquest related. So do they really have the right to ban when the instance of MQ is not TRUELY under the pretences here? I know what you are gonna say they don't have to give a reason and they can ban just for fun, but the reason myself and many others are getting banned is because of this very section of the EULA. The fact is MQ does not fall under the above section of the EULA as there is no violation of what is specified in the EULA itself.

insanitywiz · Post by **insanitywiz** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:47 am

Change game play being operative out of these words. Now, again, you could fight for your monet back from any prepaid plans, but thats about it.

ap50 · Post by **ap50** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:27 am

modify the Software to change Game play

There you go, I'll try and spell it out a bit better...

/target = changing game play
/who npc range 55 60 = changing game play
/click left auto = changing game play
etc etc...

Don't get me wrong, I'm doing all this myself, but I'm under no illusions that I'm not doing anything wrong.

Domosan · Post by **Domosan** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 7:32 am

Lord Yei wrote: Example of valid Ban: GM -- Something came through the server allowing you to target a mob outside your visible range.

Example of invalid Ban: GM -- You have a mob targeted that is outside your visible range.

Well, when one considers that what you have targeted could possibly transmitted to the server when it verifies your character against the server...the example of the invalid ban suddenly isn't so invalid.

They can always find a "legal" reason to ban your account. Even if it's just "some of the things you've been observed doing by GMs are suspicious". And if the MQ community who feels they deserve a refund of the $25 or so they lose when they get banned ever tried to do something about it...they'd either have to lie while under oath, or admit they violated the EULA, at which time the banning/contract termination was entirely said person's fault.

Don't be silly...you cheat, if you get caught don't get all huffy like they treated you badly or stole your money.

Domosan

Zaviar · Post by **Zaviar** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:10 am

When you are banned, you should be able to create a new account using the old CD keys you already bought, just not have the chars and money or whatever.

Zav

lifewolf · Post by **lifewolf** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:22 am

Yes, but you're the contract breaker, not them... The End User License Agreement you acknowledge time you play click "I ACCEPT" to play EverQuest is your acceptance of their rules of conduct, and as clearly states in section 9 of the EverQuest EULA

That is completely up to debate. I bet you if I came out with EQ2 before SOE did and put at the bottom "By clicking 'I Accept' you agree to these tearms and conditions (EULA) and that I can come to your house at any time between the hours of 8AM and 8PM and murder your family.." I bet they'd let me just start shooting everyone that agreed... Right?

I dont think so. Even if they agree'd? No probably never. Would it stand up in court? 5$ says I dont even have to put down the chances of that.

I also bet you that if VI actually exercised their right to ban people and nabbed 75% of its active users to 'steal' their current monthly/yearly payments, then they would have lawsuits up their ass no matter what excuse they gave. Also they wouldent win. Theres no way. They call it a scam.

NecroPrancer wrote:
9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to change Game play. You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. You may not sell or auction any EverQuest characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.
That is straight out of the EULA from the earlier post on this forum. As far as I know there is no real altering of the actual software that is Everquest related. So do they really have the right to ban when the instance of MQ is not TRUELY under the pretences here? I know what you are gonna say they don't have to give a reason and they can ban just for fun, but the reason myself and many others are getting banned is because of this very section of the EULA. The fact is MQ does not fall under the above section of the EULA as there is no violation of what is specified in the EULA itself.

"Modify the software to change gameplay" . IF (which I am unsure) MQ ONLY calls functions within EQ to make /click and /sendkey and /whateverMQuses and also just responds in place of them without modifying the game itself, they are essentially not "MODIFYING THE SOFTWARE ..." but instead modifying the way gameplay is interpreted third-party to the software. In other words, things like /click and /sendkey MAY NOT MODIFY THE CLIENT. They might just invoke the client to do different things.

And who is to say that I cant make my character move forward using my finger on the upkey or via and external program that programatically emulates me hitting the up key the same way that the DInput drivers do.

However, I am no macroquest expert and I dont know how MQ works. Im convinced that it actually does move/replace/haxor some memory to edit in calling its functions and not EQ's, but im sure atleast one of its many functions could be done without actually editing EQ. Pretty sure.

BTW SEQ does not Modify gameplay by modifying the EQ software so how can they ban us for that? Just because they can and have an ignorant EULA. So in whatever country is being spoken about in this post where it is illegal to terminate a contract without refund or proof of violation, you can sue for getting banned for SEQ because it doesent modify the EQ software, thereby causing an effect on gameplay.

ReadProcessMemory != modify also for keysniffers. You arent CHANGING anything within EQ period.

Plus you guys should lay off. Im sure you would feel completely calm and appathetic about getting banned yourself. He's not bitching that MQ got him banned, but bitching that he was banned and not given proof. Im sure that if you were banned out of the blue that you would too. If not your the most controlled people I know and possibly just a well written constructive person macro and also probably a liar ...

[edit] Just thought about this. What if EQ only modifies DInput drivers/whatever to click and sendkey? Then it doesent modify the EQ software at all (or would in any applicable sense be modifying it third party if you could prove something changed.

Ofcourse using lightstep as your windows GUI could make EQ run faster and cause it to allocate memory differently just based on it taking an innequal ammount of memory in bytes to load the windows GUI, therefore effecting gameplay by modifying the software (assume, the way the software works) by third party and breaking the EULA.

lifewolf · Post by **lifewolf** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:27 am

Lord Yei wrote:Just because they say you broke the EULA is not PROOF you broke the EULA. To remove you without proof is still legal (yes..they can remove anyone for any reason) but they are terminating the contract, not you at this point. It is a shame we are not talking about enough money to entice a lawyer to get involved (maybe a class action suit....bahahahahaha)

I assume you mean illegal. In that case they violate federal? buiessness laws? or something and that kind of makes using a program to cheat at a game to break an ignorantly worded not-even-hand-signed contract look useless.

Lord Yei · Post by **Lord Yei** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:28 pm

I actually ment legal...you don't actually own a copy of the everquest code...in reality, you are leasing it. (like driving a car that the bank actually owns). VI has the right to terminate any account for any reason (it is thursday, or my daughter spilled orange juice on my pants this morning) the issue is Refund vs. No Refund at this point. EULA's in general fall under the same guidelines as verbal contracts. I'll give a few examples:

I order a cake and the bakery bakes it. If I don't come get it, do I still owe them money...
ANSWER = Yes. By ordering it, you made a verbal agreement to purchase the cake.

I order a cake and the bakery makes a chocolate instead of vanilla, do I still owe them money...
ANSWER = NO. By making a cake that was not what I asked for, they have broken the verbal agreement.

Variables - They have a ticket that says chocolate -- NO CHANGE
They have my voice on an answering machine saying chocolate -- NOW I OWE THEM MONEY

It all depends on who broke the agreement and what proof there is to this fact. You have to look at it like a judge would. He said/she said is not proof...while a log that shows:
65 (Ranger) Whoophead *anon* (NNE1234.1, Z=-12.3)
would clearly show tampering of some sort.

Is it illegal to use MQ? --- YES
Is it legal to ban someone for using MQ? --- YES
Should it be? --- YOU DECIDE

My whole point is don't be bullied by VI...if you think they don't have proof, challenge them. If they show you proof, accept it and move on.

How disconcerting is it to know that most of the files on your computer are on loan and not really yours

think about it

L124RD · Post by **L124RD** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:58 pm

Salutations,

Lord Yei wrote:Is it illegal to use MQ? --- YES
Is it legal to ban someone for using MQ? --- YES
Should it be? --- YOU DECIDE

That is completely false; well the first part is. It is completly legal to ban someone for using MacroQuest, but then it is completely legal for a store owner to kick someone with no shirt and shoes out of their shop, and they usually post a sign saying 'We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.' That is what the EULA does, it tells you what you have to do for them to not ban you, but they still can. It is NOT illegal to use MQ the same way it is NOT illegal for you to walk into a shop without shirt and shoes, the store owners will just most likely kick you out, as the point with your second point.

Lord Yei · Post by **Lord Yei** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:30 am

Point conceded...should have been more specific

TheColonel · Post by **TheColonel** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:08 pm

Holy crap guys... you're arguing like 3 year olds that just learned a new word... MQ allows you to do things that EQ doesn't... /face for example. There's a plethera of them, so I won't list them all... BUT::You are modifying game-play by running MQ... no equivications, you're changing the way you play the game, period, end of discussion. On the topic of banning w/o proof, yeah, if you truly gave a smurf you could go to court and find out that the most they owe you is whatever you've paid them in advance (ie. 6mo. subscription only 2 months into it) There is a well known sign that hangs in all the shops that hate people, but need money, it reads, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anybody," well doesn't that suck? Are we gathering a conclusion?

You piss off that soup NAZI and he will say "No soup for you!"

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:27 pm

If you use MQ and pay for more than one month at a time you deserve smacked around anyway...hehe. Jeez, if you're going to cheat and take the chance of getting caught, you want to minimize your losses.

Another person made a great point too. Imagine a moment if you did take Sony to court for revoking your account without refunding any money you had spent. Are you willing to get on the stand, under oath, and LIE that you do not use MQ or any other 3rd party software?

All they'd have to do is THEN offer proof. You'd be guilty of purgery(sp?), and the matter would be moot. Sure, their proof might constitute them infringing on privacy; however, it would still be a LOT more problems for you given that you would lose your case and probably then be in trouble for lying under oath :)

lifewolf · Post by **lifewolf** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:47 am

ShowEQ modifies gameplay but does not modify the client software, and therefore is legal.

It says right in the EULA that you have to Modify the Client Software AND Modify Gameplay to be guilty of breaking the 3rd party clause or part of the EULA.

After that, if they ban you for being right, they are essentially banning you based on the discrimination that you are a smarter person than most, understanding how to set up SEQ and all giving you advantages at their game.

Its like if you walk into that bakery after 5 other people, are equally as qualified as they are, but are refused service because you have a coupon that the bakery didnt want to take, but GAVE you in writing sitting in your hand. Would it then be legal to say 'no service for you just cause' ? I doubt.

Has this happened to you?

Agree with Flippy

possible flaw in the EULA.

Re: Agree with Flippy

Re: possible flaw in the EULA.

Re: Agree with Flippy

Removal

Re: Removal

ok