Food for Thought

Pigeon · Post by **Pigeon** » Fri May 16, 2003 9:57 pm

*shrug* MQ is cheating. I know I cheat, and that doesn't particularly bother me, because I enjoy the game more.

That being said, MQ can and probably will exist in its current state indefinitely without SOE really giving a crap. That being said, if MQ gave people the ability to, say, dupe, SOE would come down pretty hard with the ban stick, because that's on a "higher level" of cheating- it would make a very noticable and very real and very, very negative impact and on the game. MQ as it is is one of those things you can pretend doesn't exist and you'll probably never know the difference. Duping etc you can't- that's the difference.

AMadMonk · Post by **AMadMonk** » Fri May 16, 2003 10:31 pm

Various MQ offspins and related products have produced numerous dupes, reportedly earning various MQ hackers tens of thousands of dollars "back in the day."

kaz · Post by **kaz** » Fri May 16, 2003 10:55 pm

AMadMonk wrote:Wow, people are still debating this?
BTW, Kaz, nokos? Is that the old id hack?

yeah it is

fwiggles · Post by **fwiggles** » Sat May 17, 2003 12:59 am

MACROQUEST IS CHEATING...and i don't give a damn

Non M$ Coder · Post by **Non M$ Coder** » Sat May 17, 2003 11:16 am

MQ may or may not be cheating, I don't think the EULA is legally binding, it is certainly challengable. Bottom line for me is, EQ is a game. There are many aspects of it which are NOT FUN. Mittigating these makes the game more enjoyable. Using hacks to the point of removing the challenge from the game would render the game meaningless, completely unfun. There is no challenge in spending 5 hours doing combines to improve tradeskills, its just asinine. When click comes back, I will be ecstatic. Until then I am just gathering all the supplies I need for skill ups and occasionally wasting an hour on combines.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Sat May 17, 2003 4:03 pm

Non M$ Coder wrote:MQ may or may not be cheating, I don't think the EULA is legally binding, it is certainly challengable. Bottom line for me is, EQ is a game. There are many aspects of it which are NOT FUN. Mittigating these makes the game more enjoyable. Using hacks to the point of removing the challenge from the game would render the game meaningless, completely unfun. There is no challenge in spending 5 hours doing combines to improve tradeskills, its just asinine. When click comes back, I will be ecstatic. Until then I am just gathering all the supplies I need for skill ups and occasionally wasting an hour on combines.

Slight mixup there, MQ IS cheating, but MAY be legal. EULA does not making it cheating or not cheating, just legal or not legal.

Non M$ Coder · Post by **Non M$ Coder** » Mon May 19, 2003 3:18 pm

Slight mixup there, MQ IS cheating, but MAY be legal. EULA does not making it cheating or not cheating, just legal or not legal.

I get fuzzy on the cheating/not cheating thing. For instance, (anecdotal alert) there was a guy who got suspended or maybe even banned early on for using the /date command too effectively to time spawns in upper guk. Presumably using eqw is or was cheating. Repeatedly doing quests that have too good of a reward is cheating. Zerging a mob is not cheating. What is considered cheating by verant shifts a lot. Their rules change a lot (I play on a PvP server, and they change more there than anywhere).

Since this is a purely philisophical thread, I'll ramble a bit. Merriam Webster defines "cheat" as follows:

1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive senses
1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)
2 : to be sexually unfaithful -- usually used with on

I think we also need a quick definition of dishonest too:

1 obsolete : SHAMEFUL, UNCHASTE
2 : characterized by lack of truth, honesty, or trustworthiness : UNFAIR, DECEPTIVE

I just did a quick look on the everquest site, and the two places I see where the stongest argument that MQ is cheating are:

5. You may not modify any part of the EverQuest Client, Server or any part of the EverQuest Web Page located at <http://www.everquest.com>.

and

11. You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running EverQuest

I'm not sure architecturally how MQ works with EQ, so the first may or may not be applicable. Likewise, I'm not sure where MQ picks up its specific data (for, say the improved /who command), if it is dirrectly from memory, than you arent really violating the letter of the latter.

I still see it as a debatable point, bacuse rules, like laws, are rarely as clear cut as their writers would hope. MQ is, IMO, against the spirit of the rules that Sony lists, but then again they also have this little gem in their rule set:

12. You will not exploit any bug in EverQuest and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits in game), either directly or through public posting, to any other user of EverQuest. You will promptly report any such bug via the in-game "/bug" command or via the eqtesting@soe.sony.com email address.

which tries to abridge your first ammendment rights (if you live in the US).

As I see it, the rules are an extension of the user contract and are therefore a question of law, but I am just a contrary SoB, and like to argue, so please take this oppinion with a grain of salt.

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Mon May 19, 2003 3:22 pm

12. You will not exploit any bug in EverQuest and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits in game), either directly or through public posting, to any other user of EverQuest. You will promptly report any such bug via the in-game "/bug" command or via the eqtesting@soe.sony.com email address.

Honestly, I will admit that I don't give two shits about the EULA and have never read it. However, this made me laugh my ass off! An American company telling a citizen what he/she is allowed to tell other citizens?! ...LOL

Mckorr · Post by **Mckorr** » Mon May 19, 2003 3:34 pm

lol Never even read that part. I think they'd have a lot of trouble getting around the First Amendmant however....

compuboy · Post by **compuboy** » Mon May 19, 2003 10:56 pm

Non M$ Coder wrote:
11. You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running EverQuest

well since what MQ does is read crap that is in YOUR memmory (you paid for it, or at lease SOE didn't pay for it) it is not reading "transmisions" i take it as, /g inc BAD ANALOGY, someone sitting next to an interpritor that is deciphering morse code, and simply reading the sheet that the interpritor is writing the information down on. the person is not "decrypting"the morse code, just simply reading it once it is no longer a transmition. EQ takes care of the interfereing, hacking, and deciphering, MQ just takes care of the reading.

my 2cp