I would like to start a discussion on philosophy regarding MacroQuest and what is does for EverQuest. Moreover, I would like to hear thoughts on what would be the limit on what most think MacroQuest should be able to do, and where the "line" should be drawn. My reasoning for having this discussion is that my own line of "ethics", if you will, has been crossed (not by MacroQuest gold itself), but by the programs that were offered along with it.
Personally, I see using MacroQuest as similar to speeding in your car. Here's an analogy: Imagine that you're driving your car in a 55mph limit zone. In my mind, using MacroQuest as it is now would be similar to driving 65mph. Yes, it's illegal, but unless you're stupid with it, chances are you'll not get a ticket. However, once we add /click back to the mix...we are probably approaching 70mph. Again, chances are not high that you'll get a ticket (unless you draw attention to yourself!) as there are plenty of other people driving 70mph....and, frankly, you're probably not going to hurt anyone.
Now, if we were to start adding things such as TRUE offset hacking (ie, all mobs non-kos, unlimited enduring breath, etc..), then we're really breaking the law (using that analogy). Sure, you may not get caught; however, if you crash..you're really going to crash. Moreover, I think many of us would imagine that we don't believe driving 100mph in a 55 zone is probably a bad idea.
So....I guess that I would like to know where we draw the line (ethically) on what MacroQuest should, and may eventually, be able to do. My thoughts are this: MacroQuest should be able to automate any task that a player is ALREADY CAPABLE of doing (ie, tradeskills), and it should be able to READ and DISPLAY anything that is stored in memory (it's my memory anyway). Even though some of the things that MQ does to do this is technically 'hacking', I do not consider it to be in the same league as truely CHANGING offsets to create artificial character attributes.
Also, I would like to send out a plea to any that would redistribute MacroQuest that they respect the community here and not bundle it with other programs. If a dev decides to add some sort of functionality to MQ, then so be it. However, when MQ Gold (for example) was bundled with some of the other programs that I personally consider unethical, it becomes a part of that 'crowd'. I would prefer that we remain unique and, although against SOE's wishes, at least somewhat ethical by OUR standards.
Of course...these are personal opinions and not anything MQ official. But, I hope it is a sentiment shared by others.
Food for Thought
Moderator: MacroQuest Developers
My ethics on the issue are as follows:
#1. You're already cheating. I don't think there are levels of cheating. You either are or aren't. Period.
#2. The amount that you cheat is entirely on your own conscience provided your not ruining the game experience for someone else. Ie kill stealing, forever camping a rare spawn, ect...
#3. You can at your own risk cheat as much as you would like provided your willing to accept the consequences and are willing to abide by rule #2. (No you don't get the right bitch, whine, complain, or what not if you get busted)
#4. No I don't think anything above and beyond what MQ with /click can do should be added to MQ.
Your speeding analogy is a good one, but you have to realize we all probably have a "warrent" out for our arrest using your speeding analogy. Maybe perhaps an unpaid parking ticket. As with speeding, to think that *only* going 65 in a 55 will not get you a speeding ticket because your a small fry is foolish. SOE wants us gone. Period. They aren't going to do mass bannings probably due to public outcry, but that doesn't mean that they won't setup speed traps once in a while to get a few.
Jaerin
#1. You're already cheating. I don't think there are levels of cheating. You either are or aren't. Period.
#2. The amount that you cheat is entirely on your own conscience provided your not ruining the game experience for someone else. Ie kill stealing, forever camping a rare spawn, ect...
#3. You can at your own risk cheat as much as you would like provided your willing to accept the consequences and are willing to abide by rule #2. (No you don't get the right bitch, whine, complain, or what not if you get busted)
#4. No I don't think anything above and beyond what MQ with /click can do should be added to MQ.
Your speeding analogy is a good one, but you have to realize we all probably have a "warrent" out for our arrest using your speeding analogy. Maybe perhaps an unpaid parking ticket. As with speeding, to think that *only* going 65 in a 55 will not get you a speeding ticket because your a small fry is foolish. SOE wants us gone. Period. They aren't going to do mass bannings probably due to public outcry, but that doesn't mean that they won't setup speed traps once in a while to get a few.
Jaerin
Right on Jaerin
Jaerin is totally correct in that you cheat or not. You can't be kind of pregnant. You either are or not. I personally draw lines for my self because do to more would ruin the game for me.
If SOE was truly worried about macroquest and such programs they would come out one or partner with the devs to release a licensed program that enhances everquest readily available to everyone, at a cost of course. This does two things, draws the brightest minds away from hacking your program but enhancing it at a profit of course. There of course will be a few rogue PPL that will live on the fringe BUT you will have effectively moved all those users that are just that, USERS off an unauthorized hacking program that is used with out your consent. It is just the same with the auctions they pushed off eBay someone opened a site for just that EQ auctions. They could have come up with a way to MAKE money off that not loose money in layers. DO NOT FIGHT HUMAN NATURE PROFIT FROM IT. I could go on for hours with ideas but Ill shut up
If SOE was truly worried about macroquest and such programs they would come out one or partner with the devs to release a licensed program that enhances everquest readily available to everyone, at a cost of course. This does two things, draws the brightest minds away from hacking your program but enhancing it at a profit of course. There of course will be a few rogue PPL that will live on the fringe BUT you will have effectively moved all those users that are just that, USERS off an unauthorized hacking program that is used with out your consent. It is just the same with the auctions they pushed off eBay someone opened a site for just that EQ auctions. They could have come up with a way to MAKE money off that not loose money in layers. DO NOT FIGHT HUMAN NATURE PROFIT FROM IT. I could go on for hours with ideas but Ill shut up
-
anOrcPawn00
- a lesser mummy
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 6:15 am
You guys seriously do not see different levels of cheating? I myself see a big difference between Xylobot and Macroquest, and then between MacroQuest and those programs that actually change offsets to create artificial character attributes.
Yea, it's all cheating, but I think we can cheat and still have some ethics about us. Personally, I don't think Sony would really be after MacroQuest if it were not for the other programs that are out there that are using MQ code to do REALLY bad things. Giving everyone 'track' (which MQ really does) is a far cry from giving people the ability to walk around KOS mobs without aggro.
Yea, it's all cheating, but I think we can cheat and still have some ethics about us. Personally, I don't think Sony would really be after MacroQuest if it were not for the other programs that are out there that are using MQ code to do REALLY bad things. Giving everyone 'track' (which MQ really does) is a far cry from giving people the ability to walk around KOS mobs without aggro.
-
compuboy
- a ghoul
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:19 am
- Location: Good Question, if anyone finds out, let me know
Well, i personally use MQ to cut down on mashing my 1 2 3 and 4 keys to do my abilities and to cast my instabuff yalup spell. I have made an afk macro (that i dont trust too much) for when i have to say, go to the bathroom and whatnot. I dont consider this cheating, i call it keeping my number keys from wear and tear. It is an assistence program for me to save me button mashing. I dissagree that using MQ like this is cheating. I would say it is keeping the tediousness out of EQ.
Thats my 2cp
Thats my 2cp
It all violates the EULA. Period.
We choose to use/develop/work on this project for our own individual reasons, whatever they may be. It isn't really important. It is up to the core developers on this project to decide what functionality this application is to have.
There is no gray area. We are violating EverQuest's EULA, am I'm quite fine with that 8)
We choose to use/develop/work on this project for our own individual reasons, whatever they may be. It isn't really important. It is up to the core developers on this project to decide what functionality this application is to have.
There is no gray area. We are violating EverQuest's EULA, am I'm quite fine with that 8)
Well said.Mckorr wrote:MQ=speeding
"True" offset hacking=drinking and driving
Neither should be left to amateurs. And never hand a man a bottle of Jack Daniels and the keys to a Ferrari...or sell them as a package deal.
I have been over this several times. And I am backing off my past remarks about /click and abusers of /click. Fact is, for what I do with MQ I can do with Xylobot. I just like the fact that I can modify MQ to my hearts content for my own use. I also like the fact that I can build it from source so I know whats happening. Peeps want and need /click, and /click has been part of MQ for as long as there has been a MQ.
Offset hacking is dragging MQ down with it and Sprit's MQ rippoff is one of the reasons why SoE will step up the war against both.
Yes.. its cheating. But, SoE has allowed some cheating because it did not harm the game. /click abusers did harm. Offset hacking does harm. MQ as an automated method to bot characters does much less harm to the game. Look at Xylobot... ask yourself, what has SoE done to break Xylobot.
Cheating is cheating. End of Story.Amadeus wrote:You guys seriously do not see different levels of cheating? I myself see a big difference between Xylobot and Macroquest, and then between MacroQuest and those programs that actually change offsets to create artificial character attributes.
Yea, it's all cheating, but I think we can cheat and still have some ethics about us. Personally, I don't think Sony would really be after MacroQuest if it were not for the other programs that are out there that are using MQ code to do REALLY bad things. Giving everyone 'track' (which MQ really does) is a far cry from giving people the ability to walk around KOS mobs without aggro.
Yes each individual has the right to impose self limitations of cheating. That's what ethics is all about. Your own personal values. Now you can rationalize what you do however you feel like rationalizing it, but it is still cheating.
Macroquest provides a way to cheat. We as developers can impose as a group limitations to how far we feel people should go, but we do not have to the right to tell anyone else that they are going too far.
If we wanted to do that MQ wouldn't be open source and there would only be a compiled executeable for people to download. Developers in the past have decided that it is not our job to impose those limitations. So every person has the right to modify the code with thier own modifications. They even have the right to distribute that code under the GPL.
Now that in no way justifies the selling of the code, but I don't want to start that discussion again. It begs the question of how much of an outcry there would be if an MQ gold was released for free with source that included all the hacks and what not. I bet you would get an outcry from that also even though it technically doesn't violate the GPL.
The point is that it's each persons choice to moderate themselves.
Jaerin
For me I don't see this as a cheating issue. For me, macroquest has become part of the game. I enjoy turning EQ into a programming game.
For example, I have made macros that while running on 4 accounts will defeat the PoJustice tirals (well 3 of them so far).
Now, for the ethics part of this. I am un-balancing the game by giving me and potencialy my guild (a potime level guild) an unfair advantage and I DESERVE to be removed from the game for the sake of all the other players.
Making a macro that farms PoEarth for bowstaffs is unfair to the other players who want bowstaffs AND to the other sells of bows who I have unfairly undercut in prices.
How do I live with myself? Well that IS what the game is for me. If I do get banned I will deal with it and prob just start a new char and macro it back up. That is all part of the game to me.
Jay
P.S. Macroquest is cheating imo EXCEPT logging info (macros that just add stuff to your log file for your parsing needs)
P.S.S. Please don't send me messages about my scripts. I will not be release them privately.
For example, I have made macros that while running on 4 accounts will defeat the PoJustice tirals (well 3 of them so far).
Now, for the ethics part of this. I am un-balancing the game by giving me and potencialy my guild (a potime level guild) an unfair advantage and I DESERVE to be removed from the game for the sake of all the other players.
Making a macro that farms PoEarth for bowstaffs is unfair to the other players who want bowstaffs AND to the other sells of bows who I have unfairly undercut in prices.
How do I live with myself? Well that IS what the game is for me. If I do get banned I will deal with it and prob just start a new char and macro it back up. That is all part of the game to me.
Jay
P.S. Macroquest is cheating imo EXCEPT logging info (macros that just add stuff to your log file for your parsing needs)
P.S.S. Please don't send me messages about my scripts. I will not be release them privately.
/who and /target are the biggest cheats in macroquest, they are not trivial things and they both allow you to do things you wouldnt be able to do during normal game play.
you might think /who and /target are no big deal, but try playing on a pvp eq server, the advantage those two commands give one player over another is enormous.
also, /click may not be the primary reason sony goes after mq, but without any doubt at all MQ + /click and the people that previously abused it have been the most destructive thing to eq tradeskills in this game... period.
I dont consider macroquest in general to be a cheat program, automation is not the same thing as cheating, but there are many features part of stock macroquest that are cheats, like being able to target any spawn in zone etc.
cheating is cheating tho.
as for the stuff sprite is offering in mq gold, all that stuff has been around forever (/nokos etc) including the gimped SendInput version of click. I dont know if he has any of my code but I've personally coded each and everything hes offering and taught various other people how to do it too. (and if you dont believe me ask Rizwank or Amadmonk or Domosan). if anyone wants to know how to code any of that stuff just come visit me on IRC sometime and I'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
you might think /who and /target are no big deal, but try playing on a pvp eq server, the advantage those two commands give one player over another is enormous.
also, /click may not be the primary reason sony goes after mq, but without any doubt at all MQ + /click and the people that previously abused it have been the most destructive thing to eq tradeskills in this game... period.
I dont consider macroquest in general to be a cheat program, automation is not the same thing as cheating, but there are many features part of stock macroquest that are cheats, like being able to target any spawn in zone etc.
cheating is cheating tho.
as for the stuff sprite is offering in mq gold, all that stuff has been around forever (/nokos etc) including the gimped SendInput version of click. I dont know if he has any of my code but I've personally coded each and everything hes offering and taught various other people how to do it too. (and if you dont believe me ask Rizwank or Amadmonk or Domosan). if anyone wants to know how to code any of that stuff just come visit me on IRC sometime and I'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
To me, what MQ does right now is simply lift the veil of secrecy and let me see what's behind the curtain. It's cheating, yes, but I see it as a lot less unethical than actively changing things in memory to create artificial character attributes (ie, non-kos to mobs).
Yes, there are greys in cheating..just like there are greys to almost everything in the world. Just like religious fanatics and certain political factions one can pretend that everything is black and white; however, it's really a self-deception.
My thought wasn't to try to say where the line should be as much as it was for people to discuss where they think the line should be. Yes, it will be different between certain individuals; however, I think it's something worth discussing rather than just saying "go as far as you can, hack as much as you can, and steal/lie/cheat as much as you can" ...I think there are ethics that even cheaters like us can live by....
Yes, there are greys in cheating..just like there are greys to almost everything in the world. Just like religious fanatics and certain political factions one can pretend that everything is black and white; however, it's really a self-deception.
My thought wasn't to try to say where the line should be as much as it was for people to discuss where they think the line should be. Yes, it will be different between certain individuals; however, I think it's something worth discussing rather than just saying "go as far as you can, hack as much as you can, and steal/lie/cheat as much as you can" ...I think there are ethics that even cheaters like us can live by....
Wow, people are still debating this?
MQ is cheating. End of story. Wiggle all you want to make your conscience feel better, but you're artificially giving yourself powers that people who play the game the way it's "supposed" to be played don't have.
Cheating in a video game is a different level of abuse than, say, cheating on a spouse, or cheating on your taxes. Cheating in a video game might make the game less fun for some people. Those other things WILL have serious consequences.
But don't pretend that superwho and target aren't cheating. They are.
BTW, Kaz, nokos? Is that the old id hack?
MQ is cheating. End of story. Wiggle all you want to make your conscience feel better, but you're artificially giving yourself powers that people who play the game the way it's "supposed" to be played don't have.
Cheating in a video game is a different level of abuse than, say, cheating on a spouse, or cheating on your taxes. Cheating in a video game might make the game less fun for some people. Those other things WILL have serious consequences.
But don't pretend that superwho and target aren't cheating. They are.
BTW, Kaz, nokos? Is that the old id hack?