MQ Dectactable?? Of course it is....

[S_B_R]

Actually, the way I *think* they handle this is as follows:

They have 2 databases, 1 that is relatively static. it only gets updated when a Save, Zone, LD, or Camp takes place. The second database is a dynamic temporary database. The only function of this second database is to provide currency. it's updated every time you get a skill-up, a buff, make a trade, succeed at a forage or trade skill.

When you login these 2 databases are in sync, and are resync'ed every time database_1 is updated. The database_2, being temporary, is data that is unrecoverable (can't be rolled back to). This is evident to anyone hat has been in a zone when it crashes. When the zone comes back up and you log back in you'll find that any trades, experience, loot that you have obtained since you zoned in (or saw a Soandso saved) is gone.

This happened to my guild just the other day we were doing the Hedge quest in PoN when the zone crashed. All the loot that had been handed out before the zone crashed was gone, most everyone lost the experience we had gained (those that didn't lose XP had a Soandso Saved message just before the zone crashed). Even where people where at in the zone when they logged back in was based on where they were when the got the last Soandso saved message.

The reason this happened is database_2 was never synced with database_1 when the zone crashed. The data used when we logged back in came from database_1 which to us was *stale* but it was the most recent data Verant had...

Gosh I hope that made sense...

[S_B_R]

While somewhat on the topic, I once had a friend who had his account hacked and slashed by a rampant seq user. The gms got him his char back, couldnt get his items back, knew for a fact who did it, yet for some reason couldn't do anything but tell him who did it. Anybody want to speculate on this?

I would venture to guess that the GM's had no proof that your friend didn't give his gear to this "rampant seq user".



Oh and I'm sure his use of SEQ had something to with it!

[Necromanic]

This is going to be my final post on this matter. Lets face it, we can argue the technical points of EQ all day. To put it bluntly non of us truly know what systems they have in place, or what their backup/logging policy’s are.

Being an Engineer and seeing infrastructures like this in place does not mean I am an authority on EQ or know how it *really* works, I can only make an educated guess, the same goes for all of us.

Lets for one minute, look at EQ purely from business point of view, as a viable going concern. The powers at be, the people that make decisions within VI/SoE, see programs such as MQ/Xylobot as a threat. You only have to think about the way companies work. What do you think really matters to them? The end of year balance sheet. This little piece of paper complied by an accountant dictates where the company is financially. Not only does a balance sheet show how well/bad they’ve been doing for the previous 12 months, it also dictates how much they get to spend on R&D, hardware, premises ect for the up coming financial year.

Getting back to my point about MQ being a treat. How do we know this? Simple, SoE are quite prepared (as we have seen on these very boards) to ban people for using such programs. Thereby effectively decreasing profits. Altering the balance sheet in the wrong direction.

To us laymen on the street, we probably wouldn’t regard MQ as a financial threat, how could we? After all It’s not our income at stake. However, its fairly obviously SoE do. Why do you think they are willing to purposely cut off or cut down on their income? Maybe because they don’t like Plaz? Maybe its because they don’t like the colour of the MQ system tray icon? Probably not, they are more likely to ban someone using MQ because they view losing a few people on their terms (they control how much profit they lose) a better prospect, rather than the possibility of losing untold amounts revenue if they sat back and did nothing. Its far better from the financial aspect to be in control. That makes business sense.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not for a minute saying MQ could bring down an entire financial institution such as Sony. What I’m saying is that projects like these could *possibly* dent (ever so slightly) the integrity of a company and place uncertainty on future investment. Another reason to spend money on detecting unauthorised use of 3rd party programs. Rightly or wrongly, companies do actually look at things this way, bazaar as that may seem.

From a financial stand point, it is cost effective to tackle the use of 3rd party software at the root. Something they could put in place and forget, something that could detect the use of such programs, both now and in the future (programs that have yet to be coded) It wouldn’t make much sense to employ a programmer (ongoing outlay, aka salary) to combat every program out there, or even pull a programmer off an ongoing project, possibly delaying future update’s and expansion’s that generate income, the only thing they are truly interested in.

One way in which SoE could easily deploy protection for their income/investment, (cheaply) would be to analyse data flowing in their direction. Off the shelf technology they could install without much disruption their existing infrastructure and wouldn’t cost the earth. THATS JUST ONE WAY OF DOING IT. Think about this logically. There mere fact people are being banned, even as we speak suggests SoE have already implemented some form of server side detection.

Do you honestly think companies such as SoE would think twice about spending a couple of million installing such systems in order to protect their long term income? Besides SoE already had the infrastructure in place way before they bought out VI. Sony are a global company with many fingers in many pies.

Think of it another way, Mr SoE Exec wants this years BMW model. Risk assessment shows that a few John Doe 12.95 paying customers could possibly put his dreams of driving a spanking new motor in jeopardy….. what do you think he’s going to do?

I put it to you, if you think SoE wouldn’t go as far as logging everything sent their way, it is you that are nuts.

We can look at this another way. Current EQ policy is a blanket ban on the use of such programs, we all know this. I have no doubt that if SoE management decide at some point in the future it may be financially sound for them to include their own client side macroing system, they would. You never know, MQ’s days maybe numbered in any case. Take EQW for instance.

To quote S_B_R:
"database_2 was never synced with database_1 when the zone crashed. The data used when we logged back in came from database_1 which to us was *stale* but it was the most recent data Verant had...."

Congratulations Sir, it appears you do understand the basic principles of mirroring after all.


Necro

[S_B_R]

My point was, the very fact that database_1 can be stale means they don't log everything.

Also just because people are getting banned doesn't mean they were *caught* with some server side logging. People do stupid things all the time, like those that Macros while AFK. When the only real cheat program out there was ShowEQ people were getting banned for using it. As anyone that uses ShowEQ knows, ShowEQ in and of itself is 100% undetectable. (Since the PoP ShowEQ isn't passive any longer and now could, in theory, be detectable.)

My point here is Yes people get banned for using 3rd party programs. But why would Sony spend "couple of million" when they can catch people without it. they might not catch everyone but they are obviously catching those that are effecting the game play of other customers.

That's the key.... If you are using a 3rd party program and you aren't directly effecting other players, you're not going to get banned. If they really wanted to ban people for using 3rd party programs we'd all be gone. If they were logging all this data, it would be incredibly trivial to write an SQL query/script to get the account name of EVERYONE using this program, and automatically ban them.

In the end, of course they are going to ban you if you get caught. Why spend the money on a system to track *us* when they don't need to. If you are effecting someone else's play they will /report you. If you are blatantly macro'ing (trade skills, auto-hunters, and etc) the GM's have no alternative to ban you. If other people see you doing that they will want know how (and then do it themselves), or they will think you are cheating and /report you.

So you see, Sony gets money from all of us. They will gladly take money from a cheater as long as they aren't losing money from a non-cheater.

[Morath]

You hit it right on the money there S_B_R.

Sony and Verant are all about the dollar signs...if you use MQ and get no complaints from other users, it is unlikely you will be caught or banned. I'm not saying I xploit MQ in front of GMs, but if I get banned, why would I pay? If Verant found and banned all of us who use MQ for any reason at all, imagine how much money they would lose when we stop paying until the ban is lifted? Its not gunna happen.

Do they have to tell you why they banned you? No. Using 3rd party software is all the reasn they need, so you will not know if someone sent a /report or /petition.

Being a business man myself, I have met ppl that I would never spend time with socially, but they buy my computer products, so I take the profit and go my way. Sony (HELLO?? SONY WE ARE TALKIN ABOUT) is going to do the exact same thing. Cheat...have fun...gimee my money...don't bother other ppl that gimee my money.

Ok, I'm finished babbling...just wanted to use my right to throw my 2 pennies into the pot

:)

Morath

[Ariain]

I agree its only when you effect others that they are really gonna take notice. AKA tradeskill macros making lots of plat flooding the economy = Serverside warnings. No more real plat macros = havent heard anything since.

[Necromanic]

BUMP

I’ve already said all of the above, in greater detail. I never said SEQ was detectable one way or the other.

Necro

[S_B_R]

I never said you did, I was merely pointing out the fact that it doesn't take some kind of server side monitor to ban people.

SEQ was just an example of something that couldn't be monitored/logged server side.

[Amadeus]

The larger question is: "who cares?"

If you use MQ or SEQ, you're cheating. If you're unwilling to suffer the consequences of getting caught, you shouldn't use it (ie, if EQ is fun for you without it, you probably shouldn't do it).

Me, I use them on occassion, and don't apologize for it. EQ without SEQ is utterly boring and worthless imo, and if I get banned, so be it and I'll go on to another game and they can lose the $310 I give them each year. Frankly, I think SOE likes money too much and won't ban anyone unless you're TOTALLY screwing up the system or else being an ass.

Play smart, cheat smart -- you'll be fine.

[MACROGENESIS]

Yes they have ways to detect that MQ is being used. Since you launch a program every time you run EQ, they COULD use it to detect MQ on your PC. Unfortunately, this is an invasionary tactic and could get them into trouble for snooping.

So, why would they ban certain people?

Simple, the load on the servers has a direct impact on how many users they can support simultaneously and without interruption. Use of MQ or any other software that loads up the commands per second causes server lag due to logging demands. The more time the server has to spend logging interactions between you and the vendors, etc, the more problems they have keeping the system running glitch free.

There are other simple problems caused by programs like MQ. If the program causes client side parsing of data in a way that EQ does not expect, it could theoretically cause the server to reject the result that it gets from the client. Detecting, and rejecting errors of this nature requires extra code, which means extra processing power, for each and every bit of data that is transmitted.

Simply put, it is truly a matter of PROFIT, and nothing more. If the actions you are taking are viewed as a threat to profit balance, you will be targeted for improperly using the software that you legally agreed to use in a manner consistent with the EULA.

Since targeting you isnt as simple as looking up files on your PC to see if the 3rd party software exists, they must detect your actions. In order to send a message that they are serious, they need to ban 'some' users. If the users are malicious, or just unlucky, is of no consequence. They simply need to set the seed of doubt in the mind of the majority of users.

If everyone on EQ used MQ the servers would grind to a halt. Overload of data parsing and inconsistent events would be quite expensive for SOE to handle. They do NOT want to add more servers, more administrators, or more coding to EQ unless it is absolutely necessary to maintain a PROFIT.

The bannings will go in random waves and will be very very low compared to the number of people who are using MQ or other software like it. People who use it for skill ups or profit taking will lose skill points and items when caught, but will not likely lose their accounts. People who use it to farm an area, hogging a given resource in the game environment will be much more likely to get banned. Of course, it all depends on the mood of the GM who catches you.

As to what can be done in game by GM's... its been said in prior posts, and I tend to agree: SOE can program their systems to allow ANYTHING to happen to the data that is generated from ANY source that is uploading to or downloading from EQ servers. Systems can be put in place that filter data using hardware or software. File control software on the server can allow an administrator to locate, modify, lock, or delete any piece of data regardless of its point of origin. Computers are stupid. They will do whatever you tell them to do if you talk to them in the right way.

Run scared from MQ if you are afraid of losing all your stuff that you worked so hard to get. Do really malicious and stupid things if you want to not play EQ on your current accounts any more. But just remember, SOE openly invites this type of activity by admitting that it exists. Some users would never even have tried to use a 3rd party software unless SOE had clued them in to the fact that they exist. In addition to this, they issue 90 day account cards to Best Buy where you can buy them with cash anonymously. You can register with bogus information and they don't jump through hoops to confirm it.

Bottom line is that if they do ban you, they get the balance of your subscription money to keep. You will immediately go out and buy another account card. You will start the same activity over again. If you trade items with your 'important' accounts, you can be caught. If you have been caught in the past, they will know fairly quickly that a new account is yours by association.

I made a lot of Platinum with MQ before they nerfed most of the trade skill profits. Several of my friends got caught running MQ and simply lost items that were purchased and money that was made since the last prior patch. I did not get caught, but I am sure that if they read through the log files they could figure out that I had written the scripts that all those guys used for making their cash and doing skill ups. Our tells were not guarded or coded. I still openly discuss what I plan to do with MQ with those same set of friends. In the mean time, I use other 3rd party products to simplify time wasting tasks in EQ. I wont stop doing it until i get banned on my one and only account. I use it openly and dont appologize for it.

A tool like this should be a part of EQ to start with. If you were able to code macros more efficiently in EQ and were able to make them cross referenced, then they would have had a handle on this 'problem' early on.

I absolutely despise getting into EQ and being more bored than I was before I logged in. MQ use makes it much more interesting and that is the overriding factor for me.

Do whatever each of you is comfortable with out there... Just remember to SMILE.. cause inside EQ.. you're on candid camera.

[tuxracer]

If you're unwilling to suffer the consequences of getting caught, you shouldn't use it

Amen.

[AMadMonk]

A few things...

First, I agree with Tux and the rest. There's a risk. Get over it. Everything carries a risk. If the risk of being banned for using MQ is unacceptable to you, then for gawd's sake, don't use it.

Second, yes, Sony COULD detect many things that MQ does. We (the hacking community) could counterstrike, and a complicated dance would ensue. This isn't idle speculation on my part, I've seen this dance (hackers vs. corporate coders) again and again, and the hackers always "win" -- sort of. What happens is that eventually a state of balance is achieved, where the hacking is complex enough that few enough people can do it.

See the point is that anyone with half a brain knows that you can't "get rid" of hackers. Someone, I guarantee you, will find a way to exploit the system.

[Incidentally, I love listening to the SEQ folks and even some MQ folks rationalize... oh well, sure I use MQ but I don't use it for anything UNFAIR... unlike all those other cheaters! Face it folks, Sony makes the rules -- if you use MQ or SEQ or Xylobot to 'enhance' your in-game experience in any way -- you're cheating!! Get over it]

The real trick is to fly "under the radar." In this sense MQ's ease of use is sort of it's own worst enemy. In some ways, I cheer whenever SOE breaks MQ (even though I help to dev MQ and it makes more work for me) -- more breaks == fewer users. Fewer users == less chance of SOE being pissed off to REALLY do something about MQ.

I am an exploiter. I love to find the flaws and loopholes in products. The list of exploits and hacks and loopholes I've found or been told about in EQ is insane. Will I EVER release these hacks/exploits to more than the two or three people I trust not to divulge them? Hell no. This is less from a desire to seem "l33t" than to cover my own ass -- all it takes is ONE person handing out a copy of my "Hack-ro-quest" to someone else, and ten thousand people will be running it, and within a week all my juicy hacks will get nerfed into oblivion.

Lemme give you an example. Jaywalking is illegal. Most people cross at crosswalks, simply because it's safer, but if there's no crosswalk near, most people will just dash across the street without ever realizing that they broke the law.

Now let's say that millions of people started jaywalking constantly (I don't know why, this is an analogy, leave me alone). Thousands of people were getting creamed each day by jaywalking in front of oncoming buses and so on. The gov't realized that they HAD to do something about it -- so vid cameras with facial recognition software were put at every "hot jaywalking location." Thousands of jaywalkers were caught and incarcerated. But that's not the case right now -- right now, jaywalking is at most a MINOR annoyance to the gov't. So -- the gov't COULD catch you, it's technically possible... but the expense and hassle isn't really worth the problem it would solve.

Additionally, you don't jaywalk in front of a cop. If you do this, if you're stupid enough to jaywalk in front of a cop or in a crowd of people who might call the cops, you deserve the ticket youget. Jaywalking IS still breaking the law.

Finally, there's just a random chance that you could get a ticket or get killed while jaywalking. You can be as cautious and clever as you want, but it's still risky -- that's the price you pay.

So, hopefully you see -- jaywalking is using MQ or some cheat program. The cops/gov't is SOE. Getting killed jaywalking is a program crash or your gear poofing due to a bug in MQ or something. Getting arrested is getting banned. Someone calling the cops on you is getting /report'ed.

So: use your brain. Don't exploit (I'll do that for you). Don't do stuff in front of GM's or guides (or if you do, lie through your teeth to explain it away). Be aware that by using MQ or yes even SEQ, you ARE taking a risk, slight tho it may be, of being banned. For the love of GOD, don't brag (do as I say, not as I do) to your friends about how leet MQ is, unless you already know that they use MQ. And last but not least, once you've done those things, don't spend your time obsessing about the fact that you might get caught.

Hell, you MIGHT get killed by a meteorite walking to you car -- but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

/rant.

[FictionPimp]

ON a side note. I found a guy today who was macroing the castle in TM. I could tell because He would face things before he stood up :-) Every 10 minutes he would say in OOC that he was camping castle "LEAVE IT ALONE". Now i tried talking to him, got no reply, so i went around back and leved up and pulled the castle (I'm a bastard). I was keeping it clearn and KSing him. Every 10 minutes he kept saying the OOC. I petiitoned a guide because it was annoning to get this constant spam and I was told he had no proof and their was nothing that could be done.


Makes ya wonder.

[eqjoe]

Some things can be detected severside with ease. Selecting a target well out of normal client range using MQ would be one of them. There is a lot of client side hacking going on right now. Those morons that sell the guides has one called "Good Gamers Gone Bad" that explains in detail how to hack client side functions using a free program and even provide the memory offsets to do it. SoE is doing a lot of logging and detailed analyses on those logs to catch memory hackers. I believe this is what is happening to the MQ users that have been caught. They did something that only a modified client would be able to do.

I use MQ to automate standard client functions... in short, I play 3 or 4 characters at the same time and MQ makes that possible. If I get caught, I will simply quit the game.. it is no fun playing only one character anymore. I don't see myself getting busted anytime soon. My 3 or 4 characters look and act as any other group of characters.

[BadBoy]

lol could you imagine what kind of records storage they would need if what listed above as every keystroke, every HP lost, every click, etc, was logged. its too funny to even think about. with the hundreds of thousands of accounts and players, you really dont think that every detail is logged, do you? why do you think they use our HDD space? for stuff that doesnt need to be logged.